Advice to get dealer to replace EV battery under warranty

Kenny1678 · Oct 10, 2024

dlinkA3 said:
Ignoring how many bars are shown, I have actually logged the real miles traveled, rather than what the guess-o-meter shows. We are under 15 miles of actual range, which is significantly less than the 20-22 miles actual range we had when new. We only have 23K miles on our odometer, but are down to 15 miles or less of actual range, which is well below what should be expected after this plow number of miles driven.

That's pretty painful... I'm going to get the most out of the current pack and try getting it replaced on warranty. Once a new pack is in, take extreme care to keep the battery health up to par. I.e. only charging to ~75% and discharging down to at most 30%, maintaining lower SOC whenever the car is sitting, making sure the battery doesn't sit at high temperatures, etc.

I know there's a buffer, but realistically this battery pack should be a LiFEPo or since it's Li-ion there should be more software to prevent rapid degradation. It always sucks when there's such a preventable issue like this and if forces you to work a lot harder than you should to maintain the battery health...

But this is the eternal problem with PHEVs, lots of owners want to drive it full EV around town with the option of ICE for long range. The small battery means you're fully cycling it significantly more than you would be even on a small BEV like an old Leaf. Plus, plenty of owners don't even plug the car in, so it sits at 0% charge forever, and bye bye battery life. Basically, the concept of a PHEV invites typical owners to use the battery in the worst way possible in terms of maintaining battery life.

I think with proper management I should be able to get a decent life out of this car, but I think it'll just have to be a stopgap until newer PHEVs with improved lifetimes come down to a reasonable price. It's a real shame, I want a hatchback/wagon style PHEV but there's so few... Maybe eventually I'll get a V60 Polestar engineered, despite how much I dislike the infotainment and general user interface.

cmc · Oct 10, 2024

Kenny1678 said:
I'm going to purchase a 2018 Prestige with sport package, blue with brown interior soon.

During my research, I came across a recent manufacturer communication regarding "lithium-ion high-voltage batteries - determining energy content, additional information for dealerships", and figured it was extremely relevant to this thread.

It seems that Audi has officially set the line for battery capacity, and it's 70%. Anything less, you're getting a warranty battery. Anything more, you're paying out of pocket for the diag.

From the A3 e tron SSP (970253), Audi claims that the battery has a usable capacity of 7.0KWh out of 8.8KWh. That means that Audi is saying any vehicle under 4.9KWh usable is eligible for battery replacement under warranty, which seems relatively consistent with what others have been saying in this thread.

Knowing this, I'm wondering if before/upon receipt of my new vehicle I should request a battery health certificate to be performed. It would certainly ease my fears of buying an 8 year old PHEV with a basically unknown battery history... Since the vehicle is still technically under warranty for a very short period, I think it's better to strike now and hope I can get the battery replaced ASAP.

The vehicle has 47k miles and shows 16 miles of range when fully charged. Beyond that, I have no other info to go on for determining battery health. I will 100% be draining the battery completely and fully charging it the moment I get it to confirm the total usable capacity, assuming I don't get a BHC performed and discover I need a new battery.

Any advice? I'm going to be flying 2/3 of the way across the US to pick it up soon, so having it get stuck at the dealer out there for weeks on end would be seriously painful.

Hey there, thanks for posting that TSB... awesome find. How much are you paying for the car if you don't mind me asking?

cmc · Oct 10, 2024

Kenny1678 said:
But this is the eternal problem with PHEVs, lots of owners want to drive it full EV around town with the option of ICE for long range. The small battery means you're fully cycling it significantly more than you would be even on a small BEV like an old Leaf. Plus, plenty of owners don't even plug the car in, so it sits at 0% charge forever, and bye bye battery life. Basically, the concept of a PHEV invites typical owners to use the battery in the worst way possible in terms of maintaining battery life.

1) the car will run the ICE and keep the battery at its min. 20% if it is never charged and even if the "charge battery mode" has been removed

2) the presence of the ICE also means that not all of the car's mileage would be run under battery power. you could have a high mileage car where the battery is hardly ever exercised

My car is about 80% battery and 20% ICE. I have no hang ups about running the ICE since half of my commute is on a highway and people like to drive fast. Also during the winter time I'm happy to run the ICE for free heating and drive the car more like a regular non plug in... People should not be buying a PHEV if they really want a 100% EV IMO.

Kenny1678 · Oct 10, 2024

cmc said:
Hey there, thanks for posting that TSB... awesome find. How much are you paying for the car if you don't mind me asking?

Currently $21,550, but if I find any issues while checking it out I might try to negotiate a little. The price is already pretty good IMO for a single owner car that's got full service history, unique color combo, and is fully optioned.

I've attached some more documents of things I've found during my research for those who are curious, it's really cool what info Audi made available on this platform.

2) the presence of the ICE also means that not all of the car's mileage would be run under battery power. you could have a high mileage car where the battery is hardly ever exercised

Yeah that's part of my point, deep discharge can cause oxidization on the electrode, which will degrade life. Even doing a lot of research on battery life, it's still hard to know exactly what the best practice is in each scenario. Typically, small charge/discharge cycles are the ideal scenario, but doing so at really low SOC is damaging. This is exactly the scenario a battery would experience in a PHEV that's never plugged in/charged.

For ideal battery life, one should be doing small (20% ish) charge/discharge cycles between 40-60% SOC. Sadly this is relatively difficult on a small battery with the current charging infrastructure and software on the A3, but I'll try my best to accomplish it.

cmc · Oct 10, 2024

Kenny1678 said:
Yeah that's part of my point, deep discharge can cause oxidization on the electrode, which will degrade life.

I think one of their documents did state that the management system would not allow that

Kenny1678 · Oct 11, 2024

cmc said:
I think one of their documents did state that the management system would not allow that

From what the SSP says, it stays above 25% but that's referencing full pack capacity, 8.8KWh. Staying above 30% indicated SOC will keep you within a very healthy range.

Carc · Oct 12, 2024

Kenny1678 said:
I'm going to purchase a 2018 Prestige with sport package, blue with brown interior soon.

During my research, I came across a recent manufacturer communication regarding "lithium-ion high-voltage batteries - determining energy content, additional information for dealerships", and figured it was extremely relevant to this thread.

It seems that Audi has officially set the line for battery capacity, and it's 70%. Anything less, you're getting a warranty battery. Anything more, you're paying out of pocket for the diag.

From the A3 e tron SSP (970253), Audi claims that the battery has a usable capacity of 7.0KWh out of 8.8KWh. That means that Audi is saying any vehicle under 4.9KWh usable is eligible for battery replacement under warranty, which seems relatively consistent with what others have been saying in this thread.

Knowing this, I'm wondering if before/upon receipt of my new vehicle I should request a battery health certificate to be performed. It would certainly ease my fears of buying an 8 year old PHEV with a basically unknown battery history... Since the vehicle is still technically under warranty for a very short period, I think it's better to strike now and hope I can get the battery replaced ASAP.

The vehicle has 47k miles and shows 16 miles of range when fully charged. Beyond that, I have no other info to go on for determining battery health. I will 100% be draining the battery completely and fully charging it the moment I get it to confirm the total usable capacity, assuming I don't get a BHC performed and discover I need a new battery.

Any advice? I'm going to be flying 2/3 of the way across the US to pick it up soon, so having it get stuck at the dealer out there for weeks on end would be seriously painful.

Perfect thanks for sharing.

Kenny1678 said:
I'm going to purchase a 2018 Prestige with sport package, blue with brown interior soon.

During my research, I came across a recent manufacturer communication regarding "lithium-ion high-voltage batteries - determining energy content, additional information for dealerships", and figured it was extremely relevant to this thread.

It seems that Audi has officially set the line for battery capacity, and it's 70%. Anything less, you're getting a warranty battery. Anything more, you're paying out of pocket for the diag.

From the A3 e tron SSP (970253), Audi claims that the battery has a usable capacity of 7.0KWh out of 8.8KWh. That means that Audi is saying any vehicle under 4.9KWh usable is eligible for battery replacement under warranty, which seems relatively consistent with what others have been saying in this thread.

Knowing this, I'm wondering if before/upon receipt of my new vehicle I should request a battery health certificate to be performed. It would certainly ease my fears of buying an 8 year old PHEV with a basically unknown battery history... Since the vehicle is still technically under warranty for a very short period, I think it's better to strike now and hope I can get the battery replaced ASAP.

The vehicle has 47k miles and shows 16 miles of range when fully charged. Beyond that, I have no other info to go on for determining battery health. I will 100% be draining the battery completely and fully charging it the moment I get it to confirm the total usable capacity, assuming I don't get a BHC performed and discover I need a new battery.

Any advice? I'm going to be flying 2/3 of the way across the US to pick it up soon, so having it get stuck at the dealer out there for weeks on end would be seriously painful.

Amazing. Thanks for finding the attachment and sharing - and kudos to Audi for stepping up with the clarification. I was at 4.75KWh this May - and was at 6.85KWh 4 months after taking delivery. Will make an appt to have it checked out before end of warranty in a few months.

SirChargesAlot · Oct 12, 2024

Carc said:
I was at 4.75KWh this May - and was at 6.85KWh 4 months after taking delivery.

What do you mean "I was at"? Is this how much you measured being able to charge from "empty"?

Carc · Oct 17, 2024

SirChargesAlot said:
What do you mean "I was at"? Is this how much you measured being able to charge from "empty"?

Yes - my ChargePoint app can log charge from empty.

THICColasCage · Oct 24, 2024

THICColasCage said:
OK you guys convinced me. I took mine in yesterday and discussed my issues. I also built a spreadsheet based on start to stop full EV driving.. and I do wish I did more datapoints, however I felt it was good enough. $225 diagnostic which that fee gets waived if they agree and change the battery under warranty.

During short drives, I always get less than displayed; usually a 50% difference. I gave this sheet to the Audi dealer yesterday and we will see what happens.. Got a sweet Q4 Etron to drive in the meantime.

EDIT: Well, 2 hours after posting this I got a call from Audi and they said that my sheet was correct, their tests showed a degradation of the high voltage battery and it will be under warranty. They're currently sourcing the part and I'll drive that Q4 till then.

View attachment 29

Just for records sake - I picked up my car on Monday 10/21 and immediately saw a difference. Today driving to work after charging the night prior I had 28 miles of range. And while I haven't been tracking it, I've noticed I'm getting exactly what is displayed. This will be the 2nd charge since picking up the car, and the highest range it has reported so far.

Kenny1678 · Oct 24, 2024

THICColasCage said:
Just for records sake - I picked up my car on Monday 10/21 and immediately saw a difference. Today driving to work after charging the night prior I had 28 miles of range. And while I haven't been tracking it, I've noticed I'm getting exactly what is displayed. This will be the 2nd charge since picking up the car, and the highest range it has reported so far.

That's awesome to hear! I've since picked up my car (new to me) and have been getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 miles electric. A full-ish charge on a charge point measured in at close to 6 KWh, so I think the battery is actually in pretty good shape!

Not sure if I should be excited or disappointed about that lol, since I'd much rather replace the battery under warranty but I'm not sure it's going to degrade to under 4.9KWh in the next 13 months. Either way, level 1 charging at the office for a few hours I'm able to recover my full commute and have been full electric around town which is wonderful. Would love to have more like 28 miles of range though... Jealous of that.

THICColasCage · Oct 24, 2024

Kenny1678 said:
That's awesome to hear! I've since picked up my car (new to me) and have been getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 miles electric. A full-ish charge on a charge point measured in at close to 6 KWh, so I think the battery is actually in pretty good shape!

Not sure if I should be excited or disappointed about that lol, since I'd much rather replace the battery under warranty but I'm not sure it's going to degrade to under 4.9KWh in the next 13 months. Either way, level 1 charging at the office for a few hours I'm able to recover my full commute and have been full electric around town which is wonderful. Would love to have more like 28 miles of range though... Jealous of that.

It was pretty rad this morning to see 28 displayed, I'll tell ya. Well, keep a spreadsheet and check the degradation and see if you can make a case anyway. Its a $225 gamble if it does not work out

Carc · Nov 25, 2024

bruuster said:
Audi Van Nuys. It used to be Keyes.

Were there any faults found when they tested the battery? I had mine tested last week and the dealer said all good (at 61% capacity). The Audi service sheet just says for dealer to check the warranty if the battery below 70%. Since the US A3 etron warranty doesn’t guarantee capacity (UK says 10-30% normal however) they just sent me on my way :-(.

dlinkA3 · Nov 26, 2024

Carc said:
Were there any faults found when they tested the battery? I had mine tested last week and the dealer said all good (at 61% capacity). The Audi service sheet just says for dealer to check the warranty if the battery below 70%. Since the US A3 etron warranty doesn’t guarantee capacity (UK says 10-30% normal however) they just sent me on my way :-(.

California law for PHEV warranty supposedly requires manufacturers to warranty battery packs for 10 years or 150K miles, but loopholes in the legal warranty do not demand that battery packs, which have lost significant range, must be replaced. A new version of the warranty, supposed to be installed in 2027, will REQUIRE packs dropping below 70% of original state of charge to be replaced. Currently, it is only suggested. The warranty should have been written much more precisely to prevent auto manufacturers from escaping liability!

bruuster · Nov 26, 2024

There were never any fault codes on my car. As I mentioned in previous posts, just be persistent, have documentation of your EV real time mileage and don't take no for an answer.

THICColasCage · Nov 26, 2024

dlinkA3 said:
California law for PHEV warranty supposedly requires manufacturers to warranty battery packs for 10 years or 150K miles, but loopholes in the legal warranty do not demand that battery packs, which have lost significant range, must be replaced. A new version of the warranty, supposed to be installed in 2027, will REQUIRE packs dropping below 70% of original state of charge to be replaced. Currently, it is only suggested. The warranty should have been written much more precisely to prevent auto manufacturers from escaping liability!

Agreed, as we have shown - prove that the mileage on the dashboard does not equal the range. They'll load test at the dealership, drive test, and determine if you're correct or not.

dlinkA3 · Nov 27, 2024

THICColasCage said:
Agreed, as we have shown - prove that the mileage on the dashboard does not equal the range. They'll load test at the dealership, drive test, and determine if you're correct or not.

I had the dealership do this. They noted the drop in range, but we’re told by Audi USA that is normal (at 23K miles?). They stated that the battery pack still works and is not “damaged”, so Audi USA won’t replace it. So much for the CA PHEV battery pack warranty.

strangeTDI · Dec 12, 2024

Hello,

New to the Forum and 1st post here. I am about to pull the trigger on a 2018 with very low miles. What do I need to ask the Audi dealer about the battery and what documentation should they provide me prior to the purchase?

Thanks in advance.

Chris

bruuster · Dec 13, 2024

I would see how many EV miles are displayed on the dash when fully charged. Should be in the low 20s. Then if you can drive it for a bit before the purchase, see how the gauge corresponds with real mileage. Let's say the dash shows 22 EV miles. If you drive conservatively 5 actual miles (flat roads no accessories on) and the dash shows below 15 EV miles left that battery could be an issue.

dlinkA3 · Dec 14, 2024

bruuster said:
I would see how many EV miles are displayed on the dash when fully charged. Should be in the low 20s. Then if you can drive it for a bit before the purchase, see how the gauge corresponds with real mileage. Let's say the dash shows 22 EV miles. If you drive conservatively 5 actual miles (flat roads no accessories on) and the dash shows below 15 EV miles left that battery could be an issue.

Our 2017 A3 Sportback e-tron has not displayed more than 19 miles for nearly 3 years. We now see either 18 or 19 miles expected, but receive only 15 in actuality. We are only at 23K miles on our odometer and Audi USA will not replace our battery pack at all. They told us to “buy a new Audi” (this is a an actual quote).

Advice to get dealer to replace EV battery under warranty

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